In an exclusive interview with Parliamentary Under Secretary for Crime and Security at the Home Office, James Brokenshire, Editor of The Muslim News, Ahmed J Versi, discussed a variety of issues, in particular the Coalition Government’s Prevent Extremism strategy which has been expanded to include non-violent extremism.

Ahmed J Versi: Why do you think Prevent Violent Extremism strategy has been expanded to include non-violent extremism, considering that it hasn’t got much support in the Muslim and non-Muslim communities?

James Peter Brokenshire: As you know the new Government came in and looked at the counter terrorism strategy the new Contest Terrorism Strategy deliberately changes in its emphasis in terms of looking at all potential terrorist threats, so not just Islamists al-Qa’ida but very much residual Ireland terrorism including extreme right-wing terrorism and all of the different potential threats that we have as a country. So we think that it is important that part of the strategy has a Preventative aspect to it to stop people going down a path that leads to terrorism and therefore the focus on having Prevent, to be able to stop that, to look at perhaps the ideology, the themes that lie behind why someone is taking terrorist action or is considering moving down a path of being involved in terrorism.

That’s why it is, still very important to have that aspect and that angle and why the new strategy did continue to have Prevent contained within it but focussed in a different way, respecting the fact that it is about preventing terrorism rather than seeking to have a broader, you know confusing it with integration and some other community issues which is where the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) rightly takes the lead on community cohesion and ensuring that we have communities that are happy and solid communities. Therefore the work that we are doing in Prevent is very much focused about preventing terrorism, and that is rightly so in the way that this is being recalibrated and the process that is being taken.

AJV: Inclusion of non-Muslim terrorism is not new as the last Government at the end of its term also had included that. And anyway the non-Muslim Prevent Extremism strategy occupies a very small portion in the report. The only difference is that you have now broadened your remit to target non-violent extremism and in a way it is worse than the previous Government’s policy.

JPB: There are important differences from where the last Government finished because I think they were still very focused on a strategy that was all about al-Qa’ida and clearly we have to look at what the threat picture is, what the intelligence picture is, as to the threat to this country. And still there are risks of people travelling out from this country to terrorist training, to actually have that sense of active participation in that way, how there are still a threat of people seeking to access material to radicalise, to commit acts of terrorism in this country. That sadly remains a significant risk to this country.

It’s wrong to try to characterise it as in some way making it worse. I don’t think it is, if you look at what we have said in the Prevent Strategy about seeking to give a definition of extremism which does put it in context of actually saying that it’s about those who have vocal opposition to fundamental British values of the rule of law, of democracy, of individual liberty, of actually having respect – mutual respect for other faiths. That is something that actually the British Muslim community really sides up to that they embrace, that they really have that as their values. It is British Muslim values as well as any other British person’s values. So I suppose I characterise it as looking at what are those drivers that can lead to someone becoming involved in terrorism, glorifying terrorism. That is why it is right that we seek to challenge the ideology that lies behind how terrorism may go through that spectrum in that way. I certainly don’t characterise it as in someway worse. Actually it’s important to recognise that Prevent is about stopping terrorism and this is an important – and I’m sorry I know this one – distinction – it’s about terrorism, it’s about integration, it’s about bringing communities together.

The mistake was to try and bolt what was counter-terrorist activity into actually community cohesion, into having communities that are at ease with themselves, about promoting greater understanding between communities, celebrating differences in communities. That is a really powerful and important piece of work. It is wrong to seek to confuse that with counter terrorism, which is where a lot of the problems have been in the past and why we have sought to draw this distinction. The work that we’re doing through Contest counter-terrorism strategy as contrasted with broader work to ensure that we have cohesive and strong and vibrant communities.

AJV: Your definition of extremism is no different from the previous Government’s. The only thing is you’re broadening it to include non-violent extremism. In addition you have separated from the Prevent is community cohesion, But the DCLG still looks at Muslims through the lens of extremism.

JPB: I don’t think that’s right. I certainly do not look at Muslims through that view of extremism. I see the British Muslim community as very strong, as very powerful, as actually being very strong, in combating radicalisation and terrorism. I absolutely endorse and support that. What we want to do is to have a strong communities through the work that the DCLG is doing and how they develop that work so that we can celebrate the diversity that we have in our country today to see that as a strength to actually develop that further but to ensure that we have a separate but recognising that there are some linkages between communities that are strong and solid as contrasted with the work that we are doing around counter-terrorism they sit alongside each other but are distinct and I think that distinction is significant and therefore British Muslims feel really strongly about how they want a safe and secure country how they want to live their lives, and therefore I think that is the way we have sought to frame to Contest. I disagree that this is in some way just a continuation of where we were before. There is a distinction that we are drawing clearly about threat, about looking at where that threat is coming from, about being very clear when sadly we did see the events in Norway earlier this year was from the extreme right-wing and therefore how we in our approach to terrorism need to be alive to those risks, alive to those challenges and therefore when we talk about counter-terrorism it is very much analysing in that sense rather than simply saying it’s only from one side and not the other.

AJV: So why are you refusing to engage with Muslim organisations who the Muslim community do not consider as extremists but who your Government considers as extremist groups - for example, the Muslim Council of Britain which is the biggest Muslim umbrella organisation in this country. The Home Secretary cancelled a joint careers-access event for Muslim students wishing to work in the Civil Service organised by the Federation of Student Islamic Societies. It seems you are not engaging with the Muslim community.

JPB: If you take the case of FOSIS what we said in the Prevent Strategy was that they haven’t challenged consistently extremism that is within some parts of their society, the overall society. We very much want to see FOSIS doing that to be able to engage with them. There have been constructive discussions with the National Union of Students for example in relation to this. As a Government we are looking very carefully at all the organisations that we engage with to ensure that we are looking at this in a considered and measured way to be able to engage properly with the Muslim community.

AJV: There are other instances of Government policies which do not show that you wish to engage with the Muslim communities. Recently an annual Eid event which is usually organised and funded by the Muslim community in the House of Commons, was instead organised by a non-Muslim organisation. In addition Muslim leaders were not given a platform to speak at the event. Would you do ask a Muslim organisation to organise a Jewish or Hindu religious event?

JPB: I can’t comment on some of the details on that. What we are doing is, looking very carefully at different organisations that the Government engages with that there is a programme of work…

AJV: But no Muslim organisation was allowed to speak.

JPB: I don’t know as to why that would be the case because I very much believe in the freedom of speech, what I don’t believe in is the glorification of terrorism

AJV: They [Muslim organisations] don’t glorify terrorism.

JPB: The vast majority of British Muslims don’t either you know that, I know that. What we’re trying to do is be clear as to which organisations Government is able to work with because of concerns over extremism. I believe that British Muslims should be able to practice their faith without fear, without the fear of people seeking to denigrate without fear of others seeking to challenge or attack them. I absolutely believe in that freedom. And therefore when we look at some of the work that we’ve been doing with the Charity Commission to help people through the Safe Giving campaigns, that’s very much about that so that again we are working together to combat terrorism, to combat those things that would cause fear or cause challenge to our country.

I do not want to in any way to give the impression that the British Government does not want to engage with the Muslim community. We absolutely do. We celebrate the important contribution that British Muslims have made to our country, we’re proud of that we want to work with them

AJV: You’ve broadened Prevent to include doctors, nurses and medical staff and the NHS. They will be asked to identify patients at risk of being drawn into radicalisation. The British Medical Association (BMA) criticised as this will affect patient-doctor

confidentiality.

JPB: I’m pleased that you’ve asked that because this is certainly not about breaching patient doctor confidentiality. Actually this is about recognising vulnerability in the same way that if you have issues around vulnerable adults. That it is about alerting practitioners and doctors to the potential issues around this. So that they are able to identify it and therefore consider how they may be able to support that work so that it is not about saying ‘ah we want doctors to go and spy on their patients to try to report this to the authorities’

AJV: So what does it mean if not spying?

JPB: It isn’t about spying on patients. It’s about identifying risk and identifying vulnerability as we would do in any other issue of vulnerable adults who may be taken down a particular path or being taken advantage of. So it’s actually about vulnerability rather than anything else and ensuring that health care professionals are alive to that and it is certainly not about breaching patient confidentiality. That is not the situation that we’re talking about at all and therefore the concept of spying. I really want to put a line under that – that is not the intent behind the Prevent

Strategy.

AJV: What exactly are you asking the doctors and nurses to do, define it for me?

JPB: If I can just say it’s not just about what we’re asking the doctors and nurses to do - it’s about equipping doctors and nurses and health care professionals to be identifying of vulnerability to be identifying risks in those individuals – if they have concerns that perhaps you have a patient who may have a mental health issue for example.

AJV: The highest numbers of those suffering from mental health from among ethnic minorities are from the Muslim community. Surely, that does not mean they are involved in extremism and radicalisation?

JPB: No. To be clear I’m not saying that all. What I’m saying is that if you have a vulnerable patient, whether that be because of their situation, whether that be because of their health condition, whether that be because of psychological challenges they may have, and they are being treated for that and are being admitted or are going to a hospital setting. Ensuring health care professional are aware of the potential risks and challenges as they would be over things like domestic violence or other issues whether that may be gang related violence. It’s about looking at vulnerability and recognising that radicalisation may be a relevant factor and therefore may be relevant in terms of the care and support that that individual may be needing. So again I just want to underline it is not saying it is about breaching the patient confidentiality it’s about how best we provide support to people.

AJV: So why is BMA refusing to support your policy?

JPB: Well we are still continuing with our discussions with the Department of Health about how implementation of Prevent is rolling forward because we want as I’ve said to ensure that we are reducing risk collectively but also reducing risk to individuals as well which is as you know part of what the Channel Programme is about. It’s about identifying risk and vulnerability to individuals who may be exploited or taken advantage of, looking at the setting of, where that may be to provide support to them

as well as anything else.

AJV: When one wants to prevent violent extremism or any kind of extremism one would focus on those individuals who might be involved in this but your policy which is a continuation of the previous policy is very broad - schools, universities, NHS, etc. This is a fishing expedition, every young Muslim is considered as a potential extremist and terrorist.

JPB: No absolutely not.

AJV: So why are you broadening it so much, why aren’t you focusing on intelligence led information?

JPB: I disagree with the characterisation and I can say categorically we do not see every young British Muslim as being potentially at risk of radicalisation. What we are looking at is areas of either vulnerability to individuals, places where vulnerability may be exploited and looking at ways which we can be in some ways more targeted, in some ways actually doing what you are seeking which is to have that targeted approach of looking at the vulnerability of individuals at place of risk and how we can ensure that vulnerable individuals are not taken that path further; that we challenge; that we actually work with the Muslim community to actually achieve that.

I accept that we still have work to do working with the community but I do want to underline this point that we do want to work with the community because ultimately we are all British society together and therefore is that collective safety that we want to secure.

Source: Muslim News